Interview with Joe Stein

Joe Stein began his decades-long career in the theater through Sid Caesar's Your Show of Shows. Stein wrote the book for the classic musical Fiddler on the Roof, winning a Tony and a Drama Circle Critics Award. Though Joe Stein may be 93 (he was born on May 30, 1912), he hasn't stopped working since he started on Broadway in the late 1940's. When he did his first shows such as Mrs. Gibbons' Boys (written by Stein) and Lend an Ear (a revue where he wrote some sketches), Broadway was a very different place. But Stein has survived —and thrived working with the best and creating the book to some of the finest shows on Broadway. Stein was the librettist for such hit musicals such as Fiddler on the Roof (music by Jerry Bock, lyrics by Sheldon Harnick), Zorba (lyrics by Fred Ebb; music by John Kander), and Rags (music by Charles Strouse; lyrics by Stephen Schwartz). He's been nominated for and won Tony and Drama Critics Circle Awards and has enjoyed the best of Broadway performing his shows. A Jewish-American playwright, Stein began his career as a social worker, writing comedy on the side until a chance encounter led him to Sid Caesar's Your Show of Shows, where he joined the writing team that included Mel Brooks, Woody Allen, Carl Reiner, Neil Simon, Larry Gelbart, Mel Tolkin, and Aaron Ruben. Stein went on to write a musical about Pennsylvania: Stein, with writing partner, Will Glickman, found himself drawn to the Amish community of Lancaster County and returned to New York to write his first notable show, Plain and Fancy. Recently Stein saw his handy work with the show Rags, (though short-lived on Broadway with only 22 performances, it received five Tony nominations) turned into a concert for World AIDS Day earlier this year. When I interviewed Stein, his wife Elisa Loti Stein and producer Jacki Florin at the Vico Restaurant on the Upper East Side, it was on the heels of rehearsing his latest show, All About Us, with music by John Kander, lyrics by Fred Ebb; based on the play The Skin of Our Teeth by Thornton Wilder. We talked about his prestigious theatrical past and hopeful future.

Corine Cohen: Recently your show Rags was done as a concert. What did you think of the production of Rags, the concert?

Joe Stein: Overall I thought, considering the fact that they had such limited time in preparing for it, I thought it was quite good! The audience reaction was very good. And, as a matter of fact, that’s one of the beauties of the theatre. We've learned certain things. We're making certain changes as a result of that showing. Even after all these years, we can keep changing things because it's a theatre. It's not film or a novel where once it's done, it's finished. I really liked it. I've always liked that show.

If you could only pick one of your shows, what is your favorite?

Well, I'll tell you. The favorite right now is the one I'm working on. That's the truth. I really love this show. I always like the show I'm working on anyway. We've been working on it for a long time. We were never discouraged. We always thought it was a gem.

Elisa Loti Stein [Joe's wife]: What's the name of the show?

JS: Listen, you don't have to cue me honey, because I was getting to it. The name of it is All About Us.

Originally it had a different name, why did they change the name?

It was changed because…We've had several names. We subsequently decided to use the name of the original play, The Skin of Our Teeth, a Musical. But first of all, it was rather a clumsy name. And secondly, I think it would be confused with the play. This is not the play. This is the musical! All About Us. It is about the survival of the human race, in very personal pairings.

What's it like working on the show; what's the behind the scenes experience like?

Well, when we were in pre-production it means that the script is basically done. But we're making tiny little changes, adjust things to the needs of set, the needs of the choreographer.

Who's the choreographer?

Jacki Florin [the producer]: Chris Gattelli.

Oh I love him. He's fantastic! He did I Love You Because and a few other shows off Broadway and is currently working on Adrift In Macao.

JF: Also he did Altar Boys.

JS: The thing that's special about Chris is he's awfully inventive. Never the same. And we need that kind of quality for the show. This is a show that goes all over the place. It's a show that I hope is very funny. I hope very serious. I hope very touching. And I hope very exciting. I mean, it's all of those things

I love Eartha Kitt; what character does she play?

Eartha plays the fortune teller. She's done the part several times really and she always stops the show.

She always does. She steals every show; she's perfect, or should I say, purrrrfect!

Yeah, she has basically one major number, Rain. A vital number. It was not written for her, but it sounds like it was.

Rain? How does that go?.

I'm not going to sing it.

Can you please?

I'm not, I'm not Eartha Kitt.

I'm joking.

JF: It's a movie number. Exciting, but it's also funny.

JS: I'm very happy with the company. We couldn't have a better company. We really couldn't. The guy we wanted for the lead which I kind of dreamed about we got. His name is Shu.

Shuler Hensley? He's incredible. I saw him in Oklahoma. He's one of the best singers I've ever heard. When I saw him in Oklahoma, I was just moved by his performance. He won a Drama Desk Award.

He also won a Tony. It's not only that he is a good singer. He has a great quality that he moves you enormously. He's a wonderful actor, and this is a very special kind of part that really very few people can play perfectly. And he can.

And, he's right now starring in Tarzan. He's wonderful in Tarzan. Did he leave Tarzan and is working on this now?

JF: I don't know. I think he's still doing Tarzan. He also happens to be a sweet guy too, for whatever that counts. When he came on, everyone was wowed. The entire cast and design team are really committed and excited.

JS: Yes, that's right. When I saw Shu, I thought, "God if we could get him to do it," and we got him. And the girl that we have to play Sabina, is like made or written for the part. That's Cade, Cady Huffman.

Cady Huffman from The Producers.

Well she's going to be in All About Us.

So she's the lead. They are the two leads?

Well, those are two of them, the leads. There are like, I would say, four leads or five.

JF: Because the family is four. And, five would make it with Sabina, the maid. And, then you have Eartha, the fortune teller who would be six. Then, you have these four wonderful wise men. So, it grows to almost 10. Almost everyone is really important and special!

JS: Also, we have those three beauty parlor, beauty contestants. And that's the cast.

When is the first preview? And how long does it run in Westport before it transfers to Broadway?

JF: April 10th. And it will run for three weeks.

What will it take to bring it to Broadway?

JF: I think the audience is what will make the difference. I think that we can never predict. The show's spectacular but nobody has seen it.

Right. I've never have seen it.

JF: Nobody has. And this is a bit of a challenging show, but now it's accessible because Joe's book made it very accessible, and the music certainly helped. And, I don't think you could describe it. It's not easy to describe. I think when people see it in Westport, it will translate easily.

How did you come up with the book?

Well, I wrote a book called Fred and John. Basically, Fred and John are old friends. And, we had collaborated before. We wrote Zorba. And, we were looking for a show we could work with together. We examined many! We sat around Fred's kitchen table for many weeks discussing various possible show ideas. And ,once this idea came up, we all got very excited!

ES: Basically, I suggested it because she suggested to me that this would make a musical. It was the most exciting play I was in college. I had played Sabina in college. And, I said, this would make a great musical. It's by Thornton Wilder, called The Skin of Our Teeth.

JS: That's really the genesis. She played in it some years ago. While we're talking about ideas, I came up with the suggestion that came from my wife, And, this has gone through a lot of difficult times until we finally have the show that we originally dreamed of!

That's wonderful. And you worked with Zero Mostel in the original? How did Fiddler on the Roof get started?

I worked with Zero. You want to know how Fiddler started. It goes back a long ways. It has nothing to do with All About Us. Very briefly. In a curious way, it started the same way as All About Us. Jerry and Sheldon, people I had worked with on a previous show. We got together and decided we wanted to do a musical together, because we enjoyed working together. And, we examined numerous possibilities. And, then I remembered this old show from stories revolving around the character of Tevye. We all got excited about it. That's really the way it started.

It's one of my favorite musicals of all time.

One of mine too.

I saw it with Harvey and with Rosie O'Donnell.

ES: Was she very funny?

Yeah very funny. I loved Harvey's interpretation even though he's not a great singer.

I thought Harvey was wonderful. I do.

He's a wonderful actor, and he has been the host of the Drama Desk Awards for the last three years. Was he easy to work with?

Harvey? Oh, Harvey's a joy. He is. He's a darling man. He's very professional. Harvey, as a matter of fact, asked to audition. He said, "Will you let me do the show?" You immediately like him, and that's a very rare quality. Schuler has that quality too.

He's playing the father of the gorillas right now in Tarzan.

In All About Us, he plays a father basically of the human race.

Tell me about Kander and Ebb.

Listen, they were wonderful to work with. You know, the other thing we regret about this show is that Fred is not around. He loved the show. He did marvelous work. The lyrics are a blessing, and he had his heart and soul in the show. John is a dream to work with. I've been very lucky.

Is John involved in the day to day with you?

Oh yeah. He's the composer. He's now also writing additional songs for the production.

Oh fantastic. Who is the song for?

It's kind of a light comedy song, but basically, it's not the major thing in this score. The score is very full. Basically the score was written by John and Fred. This is just a little added tidbit for Cady Huffman.

That's great. She is very impressive.

She did several versions of some of my old shows at the York Theatre. She played in Plain and Fancy, and she was wonderful.

Was Plain and Fancy your first show?

My first musical. My first show was Enter Laughing.

You have a theater named after you. How does that feel? And there's a picture of you. They even engraved your face on the theatre…I saw pictures of it in 1995. Are you excited about that?

I know. But nobody knows if I ever went there.

If I were you, I would. I'm excited about having a sushi roll named after me. But I would rather have a theatre named after me than a sushi roll. (Laughs.)

Well, I don't know. I guess it's an interesting experience. I don't think about it every day. (Laughs.)

So, tell me more about All About Us. What is the most exciting thing about it for you as a writer?

Well, it's been a challenge from the beginning because the basic play is very difficult really. I don't think it has a kind of old fashioned feel. But, the ideas are so contemporary and so exciting about today and what I think we have done is transfer it into a very contemporary musical while keeping intact the basic ideas from the original play. It's about the things that are happening to us right now. And, so, of course it's a challenge for a writer to interpret the material and bring it up to this level.

So in addition to All About Us, what's it like working with Jacki?

I have said this about her, when she's not here. She is a very exciting and wonderful producer. She's a hands on producer with excellent taste.

We've embarrassed her! Sorry Jacki. (Laughs.)

No, it's true. As a matter of fact. I had a conversation with somebody this morning, and her name came up. And I said, "She's one of the best producers I've ever worked with." Despite the fact that she has limited experience so far. I think she can go very far. And, I'll tell you something, I'd love to work with her on any show rather than just pick a show. Otherwise she's terrible.

Liz Smith did an article on her recently in the New York Post. They mentioned her as a man.

Well, I'll tell you. Liz Smith and everybody else is going to get the doughnut.

She'll figure it out. I was going to write about it in my blog. So Jacki, your plans are to bring this to Broadway?

JF: Yeah, this whole thing is a dream come true! Truly, this is a childhood dream. I was in the theatre as a child. I wanted to produce or direct something in the theatre that was not onstage. I never really liked, was never comfortable on the stage. And I had to give that up several times for many reasons. But I kept coming back to it. It just wouldn't go away. So, several years ago, five or six years ago, I decided to pursue that dream again. But this! This I could have never imagined. The project and the people I'm working with are never anything I would have counted on. To me it's a gift. I'm just doing the best I can with it.

ES: You're doing an incredible job.

JS: The whole staff is crazy about her. She's also the prettiest producer in town.

JF: This Thornton Wilder play is traveling the globe the world half a century and is still going. This musical, I think, will capture an audience and move many people. Like in Princeton. I mean, we had nothing, and literally, the four house lights is all we had.

They were throwing money?

They were like "Can I invest?" There's nothing to invest in right now. We're just a workshop. But, it was that moving. So, I stay with that. And I've carried that. It'll be two years in June. And it's really motivating because I've watched that week—in the audience, and that's all you have to do. The audience will decide. They will really bring this to Broadway. It will come from that.

I hope so! Are you the only producer? Or do you have investors?

I do have investors.

Right, but are you the sole producer on the show?

JF: Westport is really the producer of Westport. And David Brown. He actually supported all the workshops which were many. Now, I'm coming in. He's been terrific, supportive.

ES: David Brown thinks you're terrific.

JF: He's a great guy. I've learned so much from him. Do you have his book? He has a book.

ES: He has a book?

JS: He bought a book or he wrote a book?

JF: He wrote a book.

ES: I'd love to read that.

JS:I have a book too. We all have books.

How did you two meet? Can you tell the story of how this all came about? How you actually got involved in the production.

JF: We met at [Broadway producer] Stewart Lane's Christmas party? Do you remember that? I think that's the first time we met.

ES: Melissa was in my house and she said something about how wonderful you are, and Joe said, "Well, why can't we meet her?" And, then, we met you at Stewart Lane's party.

JF: I said, "Let's go to lunch or something."

JS: Once we met, I introduced her to the material. And, obviously, she reacted positively. And, she loved it from there running.

JF: I was intrigued going to Princeton [for the first reading]. It really changed everything when I got there.

JS: At that point we really had the show. We had more work to do, but we knew that the show was marvelous.

JF: Watching their faces and watching them work, I could see their vision.

JS: It was after McCarter [Theater, at Princeton University] we knew we had something very special and unique and very exciting.

JF: It was a test. It wasn't the cast yet.

Joe and Elisa Loti Stein.

Are you going to do a new recording of the new cast?

JF: When we get there. We're going to Westport.

JS: And then we'll see.

ES: Step by step.

And you probably have to get more investors to go to Broadway.

JF: We will be surprised at Westport. People really need to see it. It's not a show you can explain.

JS: It's not kind of a simple story line. Boy likes girl. Boy loses girl. It's nothing like that.

It's a tough year too because there are two Kander and Ebb shows this year, yours and Curtains.

I really wish them well. I really love John. Everybody connects with that show. That show's loaded down with probably wonderful people. But, they're good friends of mine. A lot of them. A lot of the cast. Listen I've heard they're going to do very well. I think it's a fun show. And I think the audience is going to have a good time.

So you're going to have two Kander and Ebb shows running at the same time. That's quite an experience.

JF: That'll be interesting.

ES: One should help the other.

JS: It's not an unusual experience. Fiddler had a very long run, and during that run, I had other shows at the same time. Zorba was running when Fiddler was running.

Is there anyone you haven't worked with that you want to work with at this point? And what was it like working with Mel Brooks?

Well, Mel is just one of four or five or six of us. Listen, what can I say? Mel is very funny. He is always a little crazy. But we had a group of awfully bright guys. we were all very lucky because it was like a school for comedy writers. In his early comedy days, Stein worked with Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks as they developed their long-running skit The 2,000 Year Old Man.

Right, The Show of Shows.

JS: Your Show of Shows with a great teacher. [Neil] Simon was there. Carl Reiner. Myself. I have to think of who else.

That is amazing. Were you around with The 2,000 Year Old Man because that's one of my favorite short films.

Why sure. The 2000-year-old man was actually born from kidding around in the writer's room. They would come to my house for example, and Mel and Carl would perform.

You actually watched them do that?

Why sure. They were just kidding around. They never thought anything would happen with it. That's the way they'd kid around.

What was they like? Just always that naturally funny?

They both have enormous sense of humor. They were real. They talked about what everybody else talks about. We're still friends. I'm very good friends with Carl. I speak to Carl at least once a week.

Tell me all about him. I adore his work!

Well, Carl is the most well-liked man in this business. Everybody adores Carl. He's still working. He writes novels, children's books.

ES: You adapted one of his novels.

JS: Well, actually the first thing I ever did more or less on a dare was make a play out of a novel Carl wrote. The most hilarious thing you ever saw. You know who was the star of that play? Alan Arkin. It was his first show. It really was hilarious.

The Show of Shows. I love that kind of humor. 15 years ago, they released it as a video with Mel Brooks speaking as the 2000-year-old man. Have you ever seen the video? It's adorable. And it's Carl Reiner doing the recording, but they put it through the video. "A lion is eating my foot off. Somebody call a cop." It's very funny. So, you were actually in the room when they conceived of that. But Carl was the voice of the announcer. He wrote it with Mel?

They didn't write it. They kind of ad-libbed it. They were just kidding around sitting in the living room.

ES: Just guys having a good time.

JS: We went to somebody's house. They would entertain with us sitting around. But they were much dirtier.

Oh yes? Well, it wasn't dirty at all. Just funny. So, who are some of the other people you've worked with that we haven't talked about?

ES: Charles Strouse from Rags. Stephen Schwartz from The Baker's Wife.

JS: I've done two shows with Stephen, and he's an enormously powerful guy. Also a very good friend.

I met Stephen Schwartz. I went to the press preview for Rags. You were there. And so was Stephen. I think Charles was there too.

Charles and I were doing revisions on Rags.

I thought Carolee Carmello did a wonderful job. She's a really talented singer.

Well, I think Charles' score is sensational. It's a great score.

You say all of them are your favorite.

I love them all. Even the shows that are not terribly successful.

ES: Take Me Along. It was very successful in the end.

JS: Take Me Along.

ES: Take Me Along, Plain and Fancy, and oh Carmelina.

Unfortunately I never saw those.

You don't go the York. [The York Theatre, 619 Lexington Ave at 53rd Street].

I don't go to the York that much. They do some wonderful things.

Very good. They don't invite press because they don't do big productions.

I think it's a small theater. If they invited 113 people, it'd be full. If it's only a short run it doesn't make sense for them, but if it's a long term thing, then it would be easier. I went to eight things last week.

What a nice life you have, going out every night.

I see everything. I can’t complain. I’m very happy!

We're going to the Music Box tonight.

Oh what are you going to see? The Vertical Hour? I saw that. I thought the acting was good. It wasn't my favorite play, but I enjoyed it. Have you seen Spring Awakening?

I saw it Off Broadway.

What did you think?

I was not crazy about the score. I thought it was atonal. It was not…I mean when you see a score say like Jersey Boys or something. Anyway, I really liked the show. But, I'm not sure it's going to do very well.

I personally loved the score, and I loved the music. I can’t get it out of my mind. It was one of my favorite musicals this season.

That's very interesting. You probably have to listen to it a couple of times. I was talking to John the other day, and he didn't like the score. John Kander, and he is very generous to other composers.

JF: It's different. It's modern.

JS: I know, but John is not, you know, is not an old geezer.

I’m surprised he didn’t like it. Last year, Jersey Boys was the big hit, this year Spring Awakening seems to be a favorite.

JF: My children went to see Jersey Boys with my mother. And, actually the whole audience was their age, 60-70 years olds from New Jersey. My daughter was sitting there, and she said she really liked the story. And it had no relationship to her. My son liked the story…

JS: Well they're lucky that New Jersey has a big population because that's their audience.

ES: No, it's not only that.

JF: If Spring Awakening can find the fortune to fill seats with 16 year olds, they'll do fine. I think it'll become their "Rent.

I think for those up to the age 35. But my 60 year old Aunt loved it and so did her ex husband who is 68. It is all a matter of taste. Personally, loved it though!

JF: I don't think so. I think by the time you're 22, you're so over the coming of age, no? If they can find their audience, 17-25.

JS: Grey Gardens is also very special. I loved Grey Gardens. Once you get past first act, the second act is sensational. What did you think of Wicked?

ES: Wicked is all the people who saw The Wizard of Oz.

JS: I think Wicked basically has a very young audience. I think people, middle aged, they don't care for Wicked.

JF: But it found its audience. It's sold out for five years. You can't get a ticket.

JS: I can't get a ticket.

I found it entertaining but I thought I would like it better than I did.

ES: I went with our daughter and after the first act, I needed her to translate.

JS: Actually I told Steve [Schwartz, composer and lyricist for Wicked]. I said, "Steve, your lyrics are getting lost."

JF: You know it's a big production. And when they're home, my daughter has every word memorized.

JS: You know what his favorite score is?

He told me Children of Eden, I think.

He loves Children of Eden, but I think he really loves The Baker's Wife.

Let's talk about The Baker's Wife. What do you think?

What do I think of The Baker's Wife? God, I loved that show. It's entirely different. It's very warm. Very moving. It's not sentimental but it's very moving.

ES: And very funny.

JS: Very funny. Most recently it was done at that place in New Jersey. Paper Mill. And they sold out. There were no names. If the Times would have come and given us a good review, it would have made it to Broadway. The New Jersey Times came, and the NJ Times gave it a good review.

Jacki, maybe you could bring that back.

JF: I have a lot of plans.

What do you think of New York City? Do you love living here?

If I didn't love it here, I wouldn't be here. I've lived here all my life. The only other place I've ever been was very temporarily on the coast. When I had an assignment there, you know, working on television. But I didn't like it very much.

So is Vico your favorite restaurant?

My favorite local restaurant, yeah. As a matter of fact, it's a wonderful restaurant. I remember I was talking to Mario Puzo…we were quite good friends. He said, "Wait a minute. You live on Madison and the 90s. You live right around the corner from it., "It's the best Italian restaurant in New York." I said, "It is?" He says, "You lucky pig. That's your neighborhood restaurant."

It's my first time here and I really enjoyed it.

In the evenings it's very different.

JF: It's great. It's quiet, bright. I like it.

JS: And they always give me this table.

It was a pleasure interviewing Joe, Elisa and Jacki. Catch All About Us through April 28th and pray it moves to Broadway! It is a wonderful musical!

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All About Us is playing through April 28 at Westport Playhouse, 25 Powers Court, Westport, CT. Tickets: www.telecharge.com, (212) 239-6200. Visit westportplayhouse.org for more information.

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Photos: 1. Jacki Florin, Joe Stein and Elisa Stein (by Brad Balfour); 2. Joe and Elisa Stein at Vico Restaurant (by Brad Balfour); 3. Joe Stein at Vico Restaurant (by Brad Balfour); 4. Corine Cohen, Joe Stein and Elisa Loti Stein (by Brad Balfour)

Interview conducted by Corine Cohen